[NTLUG:Discuss] Video Card Recommendation? -- OpenGL, Cg

[Bryan J. Smith]

Steve Baker wrote:  
> OpenGL 1.4 has been out for about 7 months now.   The OpenGL ARB
> aim to get a new revision of the spec out every year - it's announced
> each year at SigGraph.

I know, but I'm kinda interested in some of the radical changes of
OpenGL 2.0.  It's obvious you're more up-to-date than I though.

> Yes - Cg is OpenSourced in fact.  You can find it on SourceForge.

I'm an engineer who is a _huge_ proponent of C-type syntax, from
hardware description (HDL) to application-specific languages.  It's
just something that works well for most simple things.

I believe it was Samsung or Toshiba that first developed a C-type
syntax, instead of Ada-type syntax (e.g., VHDL) for hardware
description.  So when nVidia introduced Cg, I was all game.

> However, what's happened is that Microsoft have adopted the Cg
> standard (but not the OpenSourced implementation) and renamed it
> HLSL - which is now a part of DirectX - they will extend it in
> ways incompatible with Cg (because that's what M$ always do with
> standards).   nVidia clearly don't want to waste more money
> maintaining the OpenSourced version when it's only relevent to
> OpenGL - and OpenGL now has it's own native shader language (GLSL).
> I think they said that the latest revision of Cg will be the last
> that they'll support.

Yeah, it's rather sad.  Microsoft is screwing over everyone from
hardware developers to OEMs on the patent issue, forcing them to
forfeit their patent rights.  If there was only one good thing that
came out of the DOJ trial, it was that Microsoft had to stop doing
that.

But they've already gobbled up endless OpenGL rights in the process.

> Yeah - well - that would have been all well and good but since nVidia
> rev their hardware about every year, and each card has a bunch of radical
> new features, I think it's virtually impossible for an OpenSourced version
> to keep up without nVidia's direct support.

Yes, that's _exactly_ what some of my colleagues at ATI said about working
with the XFree team.

According to Moore's Law, CPUs double in performance every 18 months.  But
GPUs double in performance every 9 months!  So in the same time CPUs
quadruple in performance, 3 years, GPUs have improved 16-fold!  CPUs have
generation lifespans of 3 years, GPUs have only 18 months.

> Right - exactly.   If both nVidia and ATI decided to stop supplying drivers,
> there would be no 3D for Linux.  That means no modern games, a severe kink
> in what you could do on the desktop - companies like the one I work for who
> depend on 3D under Linux would be forced into a god-awful Windoze solution.
> The movie and special effects companies would be forced to look back at
> Windows - having made the transition to Linux.

Exactomundo.

And people still ask what OpenGL has "over" DirectX.  GLX anyone?

> The world would be a MUCH worse place and widespread use of
> Linux-on-the-desktop would be a more distant dream than it is right now.

Exactomundo.

But the pundits still complain.  I simply ask, is it even _feasible_ to have
a Freedomware solution?  Probably not, other than the software Mesa
implemntation.

> Whilst I'd altogether prefer to have OpenSourced drivers for my OpenSourced
> operating system, if I had to choose between Closed Source drivers under
> Linux and Closed Source drivers under Windows - I know which I'd prefer!

Exactomundo.  At least there _are_ standards to it all.

And remember, Freedomware might be the right choice were concepts and ideas
are commonplace.  In fact, that's one of the "death blows" Novell delivered
to Microsoft in the recent debate -- that Novell joined Linux because there
is no sense in spending R&D re-inventing stuff that is already well known.

But at the same time, when it comes to "cutting edge," R&D does _not_ get
spent _unless_ there is a profit motive, one that Freedomware cannot always
delivery out of support contracts and what not.

Just like game software, GPUs basically have a lifespan of only 9-12 months.

> So I like to keep gentle pressure on these companies to change their policies
> and release sources - but I don't want to turn on the rabid Linux fanaticism
> because I don't want to scare them off altogether.

But some people don't see it any other way, and that's sad.

We already have a standard that people adhere to.  Yes, Freedomware guarantees
standards, but I see nVidia and ATI drivers as what I call "Standardware."
It has its place.

[ For more on my obvious bias/viewpoint, see:  
http://www.smithdot.net/display.php?category=freedom&article=hostageware.txt ]

> I'm AM referring to ATI's closed source proprietary drivers - they are
> really poor.

I haven't used them yet.  Thanx for the heads up.  I'm an nVidia consumer
(despite most of my colleagues now working at ATI).

> The (fairly ancient) OpenSourced 3D drivers for ATI hardware are just completely
> unusable.   They don't support any features more recent than about four years
> ago - heck, I doubt they work at all with modern Radeon cards.

Right, because ATI has now held back the R300 series (Radeon 9500+) specs,
and the R200 (Radeon 8500-9200) were rather incomplete as well.

> Yep.  In fact I'm going to an OpenGL 2.0 Advanced training course down
> in Houston on Wednesday (hosted by Sun - of all people!) - so things are
> certainly hotting up.

If anything comes to Orlando, let me know.

> GLSL is a much more advanced programming language than Cg/HLSL - this next
> revision will put OpenGL head and shoulders beyond Direct3D (for a while
> at least).   By aiming high, they've managed to essentially skip a whole
> generation.

Nothing wrong with that.

> Cg is a kinda twitchy programming language with lots of messy
> special restrictions and sneaky 'gotchas'.

Many C-syntax languages are.  Even the C-based HDLs aren't as scalable as
Ada-based HDLs, but for simple things, they work "good enough."  A C-syntax
language is a nice, "familar" face.  

> GLSL is a clean specification
> - which may start out being hard to implement (so practical
> implementations may be restricted and have gotchas' to start with) -
> but hardware will soon catch up.

I'm sure we're getting OT, so feel free to e-mail me off-list.  I'd love
to hear more since you're obviously far more up-to-date than I am on this!

After all, I might have a BSCpE, but I've been doing IT for the past 3 years,
and I'm now a school teacher no less!  ;-ppp


-- 
Bryan J. Smith, E.I. -- Engineer, Technologist, School Teacher
b.j.smith at ieee.org