[NTLUG:Discuss] Job Searching

[Daniel L. Shipman]

You go into an advanced display of diarrhea of the mouth and then have the
balls to ask for no flames? - What an idiot! Start your own right winged pro
nationalism website and mailing list, leave this one alone and post ON
TOPIC!


----- Original Message -----
From: "Allen Flick" <allenflick at home.com>
To: <discuss at ntlug.org>
Sent: Sunday, November 11, 2001 4:03 PM
Subject: Re: [NTLUG:Discuss] Job Searching


> Your points are well taken, but each can be looked upon from the
> "dark side" that so many of us are on right now.........see below.
>
> Steve Baker wrote:
>
> > Daniel Hauck wrote:
> > Well, let's be careful with the Xenophobia here.
> > I'm one of those foreigners who came here on an H1-B.  I agree that
there are
> > cases where companies abuse the H1-B system to bring in cheap labour -
people
> > who are "in green-card jail" can't easily change jobs and stand no
chance of
> > ever getting a pay rise.
> >
> > HOWEVER - to apply a blanket ban is sheer stupidity.  Look at my
personal
> > circumstances:
> >
> >   1) I was *INVITED* to come to the US and work - I didn't ask.  The
work I
> >      do is flight simulation - primarily for the US armed forces.  Every
F117
> >      pilot and practically every F18 pilot fighting out in Afghanistan
right
> >      now learned to do critical parts of his job on simulators that I
helped
> >      to design.  Ditto for F16 pilots if they get involved.
>
> Why were "you" invited? Was the opening made especially for you so the
> chance of some citizen fitting the opening would be extremely slim?  Do
you
> program in some obscure language or platform that makes you so unique?
>
>
> >   2) Because my expertise makes the company I work for more effective,
we
> >      out-sell British, French and Canadian simulator companies.  That
means
> >      *MORE* jobs for US techies - not less.  I'm working using an
operating
> >      system whose kernel was originally written by another H1-B who was
> >      invited to come to work in the US....remember him?
>
> How does this justify the *fact* that only you can do this job?
>
>
> >   3) Whilst there is no shortage of technical people here, there *IS* a
> >      vast shortage in some fields.  Mine is one of those.  The company I
> >      work for has been trying to recruit more people with my skills for
at
> >      least the past 5 years - with exactly zero success.
>
> Maybe they should make those skillls known to the real world so others
> can grasp the uniqueness of these needed skills, go gain them, then fill
> the need.
>
>
> >   4) It's not *always* that H1-B's are cheaper and depress local
salaries
> >      - I earn well over $100k not counting the 20 hours paid overtime I
> >      do most weeks. That's a LOT for a programmer..specialised knowledge
> >      or not.  I'm not here as "cheap labour".
> >
> >   5) In order to turn my H1-B into a work permit, they had to *PROVE* to
> >      the INS that nobody in the US is both willing and able to do the
job
> >      at the current market salary.  They had to advertise the job -
record every
> >      letter, resume, phone call, etc from applicants for *my* job - and
> >      individually explain to the INS why each candidate was rejected.
> >      If they had found someone, I'd have been on the next plane back
home.
>
> As stated above, when an opening is made especially for 1 person, it's so
> very difficult to find someone else that fits the specification in all
details.
> And, all it takes is *1* detail to not be met to disqualify someone for
the
> job.
>
> I was called for a job through TWC earlier this past summer. The man on
> the phone point blank told me that I was one of 6 interviews that he had
> to have with US citizens before he could legally hire the H1B person he
> needed for the job opening.  I only wish I had been recording the call.
>
>
> >     8) Shipping all the H1-B workers out of the US won't necessarily
result
> >      in their jobs going to Americans.  We have the Internet - people
can
> >      do software engineering anywhere - if companies need these people,
> >      they can simply give them a T1 line in an office in their own
country
> >      and have them work there - no H1-B needed - and *STILL* less work
for
> >      US Citizens.  In fact, since the cost of living is much less in
most
> >      other countries, they could be paid even less than those same
people
> >      would be paid in the US - undercutting US salaries still further...
> >      and they wouldn't be paying US taxes.
>
> This can't be disputed too much, except for the prevailing attitude that
the
> employee, you, me, whoever, can't be trusted to work at home, or some
> place not under management control. There has been talk of telecommuting
> for years, but little has come of it because of this rampant attitude by
> management......."employees can't be trusted outside our sight!"
>
> If economically on their side, then they might consider doing a
modification
> of your idea wherein you develop in your home country at a reduced salary,
> then a US citizen with a little less expertise would be hired to fully
test your
> applications before they are sent to customers.  Generally, this would be
the
> only acceptable way for our paranoid managers to accept your work from
> elsewhere.  Of course, there could easily be a small percentage (you?)
that
> the work is well known and thus acceptable without the stateside
inspection.
>
>
> > > I have many friends who are actually H1-B visa people... I'd be sorry
to see
> > > them go, but damnit, I'm a CITIZEN and I need a job.  Am I a citizen
or a
> > > consumer?
> >
> > You are a human being - same as me.
> >
> > If there is one thing the people of this country should learn from Sept
11th,
> > it is that - like it or not - you are part of a larger world.
>
> Yes, we are all part of a larger world. So what? I'm a person. I'm a
Texan.
> I'm an American. I'm a member of the World Community. There's an order
> for everything.
>
> If I were a foreign worker in your home country under similar
circumstances,
> would your attitude, or that of your fellow citizens be the same as you
are
> writing here?  Doubtful.  As most other countries have protective laws,
why
> is it wrong for the US to do the same?
>
> Sorry world, our constitution does NOT cover everyone born into this
> world.  Just those that are US citizens.  Many of us are born this way and
> we are *damned* lucky to have that condition. Others must move here
> and go through some arbitrary (sic?) process.  I apologize for that, but
> no one can guarantee that there won't be bumps in the road of life.
>
> I'll agree that some of our processes need continual modifications for
> streamlining purposes, as well as for other reasons. But, again, no
> guarantees.
>
>
> > Mass deportation of your allies law-abiding citizens isn't going to do
> > much for keeping the fragile alliance together.  You should have heard
the
> > upset in the UK when five British widows who lost their husbands in the
> > World Trade Center disaster were notified that they were to be deported
> > within two weeks.  Without an H1-B worker in the family, they no longer
> > had valid visa's.
>
> I'm with you 100% on this one. If these stories are true*,
>
> *I assume they are for arguments sake, but I've not heard these stories
> on our pathetic US news folks. They may have put it out somewhere, but
> just not emphasized it.
>
>
> > Free trade in goods and *skilled* workers makes for better understanding
> > between nations - and that's something we all could use more of right
now.
>
> "Free trade in goods and *skilled* workers" from select countries I assume
> you mean, with your homeland being one of them.
>
> If it were not just from selected countries, then we'd be right back to
where
> we are now with these *terrorists* coming in under some ruse of education
> or employment, disappearing from sight for years only to reappear right
before
> their hijacked airplanes crash into some other large structure.
>
> -----------------------------------
>
> Consider this analogy: Your/my home is like a country within the Dallas
community.
> I don't have an *open door* policy wherein anyone who wants to can come
and
> go within my house and do whatever he/she wishes.  I may offer someone
sancuary
> but I'll guarantee you this, unless my own child has done something
stupid, he/she
> will most definitely get precedence over you. If there's just enough beds
for my
> family, then I'm sorry, but you'll have to sleep on the floor.
>
> Am I mistreating you? Hell No!  I'm taking care of my own.
>
> Should you become one of my own, by marriage or adoption or whatever, then
> there will be more equal treatment.
>
> Would I ever misplace one of my own to give it to you?  Let's say you
offered
> to do more work around the house, keep your room clean all the time, and
always
> talk good of me while you're at school.  Should I take you in and cast out
my own
> son?  Sorry, I don't think so.  I gotta take care of my own first.  Then,
if there's
>
> enough left over, I'll give you some.
>
> IMHO, please no flames.
>
> --
>   :^)  Allen Flick  (ALF)
> <http://msbc.simplenet.com/quotes/>
> Microsoft has done for software what McDonald's did for the hamburger.
> ======================================================================
> When you're swimming in the creek, and an eel bites your cheek,
>            ......................that's a moray!
>
>
>
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